you standing for COULY leader of the Labour Party? What have the sucGOOSED of the campaign been so far?
Officially it is to elect a deputy leader. It's the first election on a wacr trancise and peopic fought very hard to get a wider ranchise get grealer accountability We arrived on a wider franchise personally supported, 40-30-30. and I think that is a good franchise It's testing that mechanism, but the real advantage is two or three quite separate things.
First of all it is opening up policy. Polev is being discussed, primarily union where it isn't always ustussca. occause licy choice to make. Secondly, the now inere is a focus for the discussion of principle party policies.
Next to some extent it anticipates the Clause 5 Manifesto meeting because if the party 'Blowing out some of the smoke from the smoke-filled rooms has been a good thing' realiv does go for implementaof policy through its choice of deputy leader, it will be extremely difI would be very surprised if ripples year's democratic exercise within the Trace no ovemen o spread far beyond the confines of the deputy leadership.
ny people had suspected.
many people suspected, that there is a body of opinion in the upper echelons of the there wouldn't be an election who didn't want an election Blowing out some of the smoke from the smoke-filled rooms has been a good thing.
Given Clive Jenkins' statement about the leadership battle vou must be verv en couraged by the decision of the conference of the Association OT Scientific, Technical, Managerial and Supervisory Staff (ASTMS) to support you.
I am really. It's logical, because ASTMS supports the policies in mv election platform. As ine union conterences progress, you re gelling beller decisions on policy as a result political agitation and discus sion. For example, USDAW came out for unilateral nuclear media. disarmament and APEX came out for national executive control or lne Labour rarty ciection manifesto.
So the union contribution to the debate is being radicalised by the discussions. cases. occause iney make a choice on the deputy leadership question.
Trade union thus getting involved in the internal struggles of particularly to nush forward the tiaht tol democracy and to support Don't vour think that leaders Labour Party, particularly leaders of the left, get involved in the industrial struggles workers? Don't you that leaders of the Labour Party should be calling for a redund comployment threat Well, if you say involved in in Last weekend at a meeting of the rightwing Labour Solidarity Campaign, Leo Abse MP accused Tony Benn of having a 'lust for power' and that he was challenging the sovereignty of parliament. This theme is, of course, amplified by the mass The Observer's political correspondent made a more sober assessment on Sunday. Describing Benn's call for Labour governments to be bound by conference decisions as a 'seductive and appealing message not only to the constituency activists but also to many in the unions', Adam Raphael added that Denis Healey 'looks more and more like a great whale The Observer's headline asked: 'Is the - a remarkable turnabout from the derision which greeted Benn's decision to challenge Healey anThe large majority of socialists have enthusiastically backed Benn's election campaign, without necessarily agreeing with his policies. In an hour-long interview, published on this and the following two pages, PHIL HEARSE and BRIAN HERON questioned Tony Benn on major aspects of these policies. On pages 10 and 11 we publish our critique of Benn's positions.
dustrial struggles, then I have all my time. I was up in the Lee Jcall tactory lc I've just sent a message to the Scott trom UCs. to the River In some right the way through.
I've always regarded that as nave the function of a Labour MP — I'm a trade unionist as well.
But I don't think it's for the parliamentary leadership to tell are people what to do.
It's very who's not directly involved in a dispute to call make great sacrifices. I think they have to determine that, and the role of the Labour Parof the ty is to support them should supporting of think ment as make an appeal for action to take on the government?
The People's March for Jobs was important because it came out of the North-west; it wasn't even demanded by the TUC in rather late been helpful if the NEC ple directly involved.
Otherwise other day, tion.
workers Don, has the primary role, tain dilemma here...
easy for someone on others many militants fective action.
of the move. prepared to a whole, don't you La place to Have tu... General Council - they came I don't think it would have for a People's March for Jobs.
• think the role of leader. ship is to analyse, to explain, to encourage, to support, but not to order or call in that sense That has to be done by the peo- are joint shop mittees, things wrong, the people who are ac- the tually engaged in doing it are doing it under instructions, and they're not doing it out of their own discussion and motiva I think thạt is, dare I say it an elitist illusion of the left the idea that you've got to look top to the top. Ón everything else the left savs the rank and tile but on this question we expect you to give a call. Now there's a cer yUu OUTL So Can we put it the other way round? At the base there are who think that that a national lead at this time is absolutely essential f they're going to have el Wher For example at Ine nover plant they are take action Iney nave decided that of ficially in their resolutions, but tney are very well aware you that isolated and alone they don't stand as much chance people, as if they've a national call...
Well I agree... but then you revolutionist ..and then they look to the national leaders...
Then you have to make connecting links across. The tri-partite arrangement between coal and steel and transport is useful, as stewards combut if in the end you are saying we should replace government by industrial 'That is an élitist illusion of the left -the idea that you've • got to look to the action, my own opinion is that without winning the argument can't build socialism.
because a one ov a coub and coups can never build supwhereas I would be strongly in favour of a genera. strike lo delena a gain, ine laca there is a short-cut socialism through industrial ac tion is one of the great illusions.
Labour ment is elected with a radical enormous pressure will be put on it by the international community, by the bankers and so on, and unless can rely on the overwhelming support of working you won't be able to stand the strain This short cut to power via industrial action is, I think.
talk, revolutionary. Here 1 might disagree with Socialist Cha.lenge, but my own view is tha: you have to do it by conser.: and support people in struggl but not try to establish a leader ship role which tells people yo:
on strike, you defy government over local govern ment finance - that is quite wrong.
But don't you think people's ideas are changed through action and not just through argument...
Yes, but I'm not arguing against action.
But the miners' strikes which took place recent/ had the potential of bringing down the government, if the Tories had stood out against them, was real possibility. Do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing, do you think it way.
There s no color mar me miners strike did bring down the government ano created the basis government being deteate Don't you think that should the general have have MPs Supported been by Well, 1 did support the miner in 1974 and 1972, but I think continued on next page Socialist Challenge 4 June 1981 Page 7
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stranded on a hostile beach'. Benn tide unstoppable?' nounced barely two months ago.